www.iFourWinns.com

For the last few months, I've had wacky behavior with my 'factory' installed Raymarine nav package.

At first, last summer, i would occassionally lose the sounder signal... ok, no biggie. It seemed to come back.

Last fall, i started reading crazy water temps - like 200 degrees in a 50 degree lake union. Obviously something wrong. Then, I lost my sounder signal.

I've been trying to diagnose the issues -- is it the sounder module from Raymarine, or a transducer issue? Is the hull just dirty? Is it something else?

Finally, I dug into a bit yesterday. I had the boat hauled and pressure washed/serviced. It went back in the water and still the same crazy water temps and lack of sonar. I did a reset of the sounder module (both via the c80 and shutting the helm main circuit) -- and all of a sudden the sounder module is back online.

However, I still get a water temp reading of 200+ degrees.

I pulled the C80 out of the dash looking for the sounder module. yeah, it's there -- pretty much unaccessible to be pulled by me. My arms/hands are too big and they obviously assembled all of this before putting the dash together.


Question... They use an Airmar x-ducer that has just temp/sonar. Since there's no moving parts, and no way that anyone stepped on it or damaged it -- what the heck could have happened?

Is it the x-ducer? Or the sounder module? I'm beginning to think the sounder module because my sonar came back online.

I have to boatyard it and have a tech dig into it - because I just can't get to the module. And, if I have to tear the dash apart - I'm sure not taking the risk for that one. FW can cover it under warranty.

Thoughts? Anything else I should check? Anyone else have this issue by chance?

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Couger...

I deal much with low voltage/amperage controls and monitoring equipment. This stuff gets a little "funny" around things such as generators, inverters, and radio/cell phone transmitters which cause electronic interference. One simple and cheap "fix" we have for these little anomolies is called a ferrous (iron) core. They are typically available at Radio Shack, and other electronic supply stores. It is nothing more than an iron "donut". Run the wire thru once, then loop it thru once more for good measure. Many of your electronic cables (USB cables, adapters, video cables) already have them... that's the little widget on the cable about the diameter of a finger, about the length of a pen-cap.

Give that a try, and see if it works/helps.... if so, you have some electronic interference giving you "issues".

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Walt B
"Debt-Charged"
Black '07 H210SS
6.2L Bravo One turning a 21P HIFive
Wakeboard Tower with Perfect Pass Stargazer version
Missouri River; Kansas City, Mo.

The airmar is usually a combined temp sensor and depth transducer (and sometimes speed through water). It usually connects via Seatalk network to the C80. It does not use a separate module.

Do you also have the fishfinder setup? That would use a transducer down in the hull (usually through-hull, but other setups exist). The fishfinder transducer feeds into a module (DSM-300?) and then into the chartplotter. I don't know if that setup does temp too, could be.

The fact that you're getting data from the sensor leads me to think it's NOT a matter of interference. It's more likely the sensor itself is defective. The sensors all send digital data on the network. It's prefaced with device information. If there was interference then the C80 probably wouldn't see the device at all. That fact that it sees it sort of eliminates that question. But since you read bad temps then it's likely the sensor itself is actually sending properly formatted, but incorrect data (the high temp).

I believe there's a menu you can dig into on the C80 that will let you see network information. And in there it can also show you the number of data packets on the network and number of detected errors. A check of that is in order. I'd check the error counts while everything else was off, then with all your accessories running and then again with the engines running while cruising. If the error numbers fluctuate based on other activities it's only then that I'd start to question interference. You could have a bad ground somewhere or other electrical noise that's interfering with the chartplotter.

So does your setup have the depth/temp sensor, the fishfinder setup, or both?

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

I get depth/temp/sonar.

I think it's the airmar b60 or something like that.

I can't imagine it's the x-ducer. They are ceramic elements in there, and the temp comes through as an ohm reading typically. No moving parts -- what could be causing that?

I think it's the DSM module. Raymarine has had their fair share of issues...

I get sonar... (fishfinder)... I get depth. Temp is just haywire.

Can part of a transducer go bad? I would have guessed it's all or nothing...

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

A more precise model number would help.


Do you have just the one unit in the hull?

Yes, I could imagine just one part of a multifunction device going bad. If you only have the one sender, connected to the DSM-300, then there are separate wires in the cable for depth, temp, speed and the echo sense. A sender might provide any combination of those signals (not all have speed, temp, etc). It might be possible for the cable or connections to be a problem on just one of those. I could see it being possible for the wire or connection to be bad and that cause the DSM-300 to provide faulty data over the network to the chartplotter. I don't know what analog values should be seen on the temp pins.

There is a TEMP CALIBRATE setting in the menus for the DSM. But I'm assuming yours is already calibrated, just wildly fluctuating now and then? There are also some diagnostic signals that will show on the DSM's status LED. If the status LED is red and blinking then you have errors. Which ones are listed in the install manual for the DSM300 (which is available on the raymarine website).

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Cougar - I'm assuming you've gone this route already, but just in case you haven't... the Raymarine site has a lot of support information and their techs are usually pretty good about getting back to you quickly by email, if not by phone. There was a software update for the DSM I have that came along with the E series update a few months ago - don't know if the C series has the same. Again, you've probably been through their site, but I wanted to remind you of the option if you hadn't.

One of two outstanding issues for me is my depth reading which I frequently lose at cruising speeds. It is likely caused by air bubbles at the transducer. FW had a new transducer installed before last season and the same problem persisted. I'm giving them another shot at figuring it out before splashing next month but I'm loathe to put another hole in the boat. And to your point of getting at the electronics - I am looking forward to having good access on my next boat. I realize it's a compromise of the design - and I love the helm layout on our boats, but it is insane. I am dreading pulling out the E80 just so I can power down the DSM independently for the software update when I do it. Dreading.

Good luck & let us know what you learn...

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Previously:
2008 V358/Volvo 5.7 GXi Inboards

You could always power the DSM independently. I rearranged how my gear is powered. Mainly so I could power the network standalone from the chartplotter. This lets me use an ST60 for displays while out on anchor and not have the power-hungry chartplotter running. I don't have the DSM so it's a non-issue for me. I also don't have the under-helm seat breaker panel. All of mine is down in the cabin, and it's a bit tight. I've no spare breaker spots. Some later models of the 348/358 have more breaker space, and the under-helm panel too.

And all of my hardware is under the steps in the AC cabinet. The autopilot and sirius were there from factory, and I've added a network hub and a video distribution amp (for the DVD player). I'd probably put the DSM in there too. The inside of the helm console is just not designed well enough for added gear. At the very least it could use an access panel in the lower portion. But since it's a gracefully curved fiberglass panel it's a hassle to get an access hatch for it. A better design would certainly help.

When dealing with removing the chartplotter I've found it very handy to use an upholsterer's tack puller. It sort of looks like a slightly bent flat blade screwdriver with a forked tip. It's designed to leverage tacks from upholstery. The tool is just about perfect for popping the fascia panel off the front of the chartplotter. Makes getting it off a LOT easier. Then it's just the four screws and the whole thing flops toward you.

The operating manual for the DSM does clearly state that the power cable for it should be easily accessible. But the installation manual doesn't mention that. That's bad. The install manual does state NOT to put the module in the engine room or in the main console. Looks like both FW and Raymarine get to take some heat here.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Did you ever figure out what was causing this? I have the E80 setup with the same issue, seawater temperature is reading 365 degrees.

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2008 - 318/350 mag's
HAPPY HOUR
Lake Norman
Cornelius NC
Previous 2000 - 268/7.4

Nope, I'm just assuming it's the sensor having failed. It still sends working depth values (it's both temp & depth) so that tells me it's not the connection from the device to the chartplotter. I haven't had reason to pull the boat out of the water. And until that happens I'll just live with the faulty temp reading. It'd cost me more than the sensor to have it pulled.

Supposedly the sensor can be removed and replaced "quickly" while still in the water. Just unscrew it, let some seawater get in and be QUICK about putting the new sensor in place. Yeah, right. I'd much rather not have the boat sink or have to get in to a panicked dash to a travelift because the reconnection failed for some reason. Better to be high and dry instead.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

I am going to dig into this a little bit and contact Raymarine to see if they can solve this, I just do not believe that the transducer is bad. I will let you know what I find out.

Bob

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2008 - 318/350 mag's
HAPPY HOUR
Lake Norman
Cornelius NC
Previous 2000 - 268/7.4

Well, if your sensor is doing both temp and depth, and your depth reading is OK then it's got to be the temp portion of the sensor. Since it's all built into one sensor I don't think there's any way to repair just one part of it.

That and I don't think the sensors are Raymarine gear. I think they're made by Airmar if I remember correctly. I don't recall there being any way to reset or otherwise calibrate the sensor. It's just a dumb sender and doesn't have any native programmability.

And I believe it's only the retractable kind of sensor that can be serviced while the boat is in the water. The regular kind are built all together and need to be removed from the outside. Exposing the inner core of the hull to possible water intrusion would be a very bad plan. Mine, I think, is not the retractable kind.

One solution a lot of people choose is a separate temp sensor mounted on the transom. The thinking being that it's easier to run a new wire than it is to junk the working depth part of the transducer only to buy another combo that might be just as likely to fail.

So start by getting the part number off your depth/temp sensor and looking it up on that vendor's website.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

I emailed Raymarine technical, and they sent me the directions to test the transducer. When I tested mine, it is reading 0 ohms, it should be reading close to 10,000 ohms. So the thermistor in the transducer is bad. I will probably replace it the next time I pull the boat, maybe next year.

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2008 - 318/350 mag's
HAPPY HOUR
Lake Norman
Cornelius NC
Previous 2000 - 268/7.4

Would you mind sharing how to test the transducer? I have the issue where my temp creeps up. I was assuming it was because the engine compartment was warming up and affecting the reading.

My set up is a C80 with a DSM300 and an Airmar B117 transducer. I am set for in the fishfinder mode which is the only set-up that displays water temp and depth. I have installed the latest firmware in both units (C80 and DSM) and still get the same responses. In the C80 set-up, you do have transducer options to match the transducer to the DSM.

The one thing I did to save battery was to run the DSM power through an open helm switch to shut it down when its not necessary. Works great.

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Jnizi

2007 Vista 338 "Better Yet"
Previously:
2007 Vista 258 " Just Right"
2005 Horizon 230

Bear in mind most folks have a depth/temp transducer unit that's connected directly to the Seatalk network. Not using a DSM fish finder setup. I believe his previous post was for checking the resistance value for the temp portion of the sensor. Not having done it myself I couldn't say which wires to check, but I'm sure Raymarine or Airmar should have the tech info for it. Drop 'em an e-mail to ask?

From what I gather the temp units are known to fail and we're all seeing them at about the 4-6 year timeframe. That seems to be typical (not that it's welcome news though).

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

My temp sensor reads very high on my C80 as well, and after seeing many posts about it I'm just going to live with it. Its not worth the hassle or expense to replace it every year.

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225