www.iFourWinns.com

Marine mechanic (very well respected) talked me into a new long block after repairs to my stern drive separating from hull. "As long as we have engine out -- there are so many problems let's make it all good." We agreed on a set price, so I am good with the project -- but it is going sideways. New engine is in. All hooked up. But it sounds like an unmuffled dragster at the Saturday night races. I included link -- the sound in person is a lot more pronounced. Before the exchange the engine would purr inside the engine bay. Now it turns heads, even covered by the back seat cushion. On sea trial it came out of the hole pretty well, but the longer we drove the less power it had until it could barely get out of the hole and max RPM was about 3300. We went back to the dock where the mechanic is a bit mystified.

https://youtube.com/shorts/MA7UEtxjCv4?feature=share

Engine starts fine
Engine idles fine
Temp is a steady 170
Oil pressure perfect
Alternator charging perfectly
No water leak from engine
No liquids leaking, period

There is some smell of exhaust, more annoying than overwhelming.

Obviously, the mechanic is frustrated. He is now upside down on this project, and I will be, too.

He suspects the gasket under the plenum might be bad, hence the loud exhaust noise.

Anyone else want to take a stab in the dark over what comes next? It's a great looking boat, excellent shape for its years (1996) and I am this close to selling it was a mechanic's special, if people even buy those anymore.

Thanks, as always.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

I can now add that the intake gasket replacement restored the power. But there remains an exhaust leak. Loud as @#$%. New target: Exhaust manifold gasket (although no water is seen anywhere)

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

I don't have any experience working with I/O systems, but a lot of experience working on cars/trucks.
That does sound very loud, especially if it's not a "Captain's Call" exhaust type setup. About the only thing I can suggest is getting in/around the engine to try and determine where the sound is coming from, or at least is the loudest. Check every connection, mounting flange, etc. Something isn't seated right or connected correctly.

Best wishes for a quick and easy fix. Sorry I can't help out more.

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1999 180 Horizon OB Fisherman Pkg
2013 Grand Cherokee 4x4 w/ 5.7 Hemi
San Antonio, TX

that should not be that hard to track down, as loud as it is. I'd be looking at the exhaust manifold to cyl head joint for carbon, you probably could feel the exhaust coming out. How is the exhaust temperature? Are you getting good flow through the manifolds & elbows? Were they checked before installing on the new or reman engine? I've changed the exhaust 3 times on my engine (par for the course over 20 years in salt water) and never had an exhaust leak. First, try checking the torque on the exhaust manifold bolts, should be around 25 ft lbs. Second, check the rubber boots for any sign of water leakage, sometimes after the install the clamps need to be retightened.
Did the mechanic use new manifold to cyl head gaskets?

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I get new info pieces at a time. He’s a confident mechanic and I’ve known him for years — he expects things to work. But this is a challenge I suspect that is partly his own making. The gasket under the plenum was easy to fix. He now suspects exhaust manifold because he changed the configuration to raise them ever so slightly hto make them more accessible in the future. He was proud of his idea (true replacement parts no longer available - the curse of an old boat/engine) and is coming to grips with the idea that there is something really amiss with that. It’s the obvious suspect. The whole Exhaust system will come off and go back on. He is ups$de-down on this project because he talked me into it at a base price as a favor to me. I’m upside down any way you look at it.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

That's a Ford engine and while the engines themselves were good, they stopped using them a long time ago so parts availability is a bigger problem than what you'd have with a Chevrolet engine. OMC and Volvo used them up to the late '90s. Mercruiser has not used them since the '70s. I'm thinking what he did or tried to do was to make it easier to get at the spark plugs, this is a problem with certain marine manifold designs, due to the water passages needed to keep them cool. Some people wound up grinding down a spark plug socket to get at the plugs more easily.
On my old '88 Chevy 4.3 I never had trouble getting at the plugs, either with the original one piece OMC V6 manifolds or the Barr aftermarket 2 piece manifold/elbows I replaced them with.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

That is exactly what he did. And he used gasket on the riser that he was not sure of. They ended up just blowing up under the huge pressure. (picture of gasket) It broke in two just picking it up. https://www.dropbox.com/s/tcbj33mcbr5n8bv/gasket.jpg?dl=0

So he's mad at himself for not going with the prescribed gasket and has to pull off the exhaust manifold and scrape it down to smooth. It's a long process. Also threw in shot of the old manifold https://www.dropbox.com/s/457eq76wuxd2wwe/manifold.jpg?dl=0

...and the old block https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ws5roryegazao1/block.jpg?dl=0

...which, if you look in the corners, showed a lot of rust. Seawater. I flush it every trip, even use Salt-Away -- but if you miss one little spot....well, rust never sleeps.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

We have not come far. The mechanic is now taking this personally. He is the one who talked me into the new long block and so he feels a sense of ownership. After the "loud engine" incident (where you could smell exhaust from the engine bay) he replaced the manifolds and plenum gaskets. He dropped the prop in the water and fired it up. Normally you'd just get a nice purr from the engine while the exhaust is buried in water, but we got this again...

https://youtube.com/shorts/P_ZZKHr-kZs?feature=share

You can hear him talking to me just behind the engine noise, which is still loud UNDER the seat covers.

He's as frustrated as me - it's been a thing since December. He thinks the only thing left to do is pull the engine and inspect the connection where the exhaust Y bolts to the transom shield.

One more fact: The engine or connections are NOT leaking water. It's just loud as _____.

Any hail mary's out there?

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

I can reply TO MY OWN POST with the fix! The mechanic was awake all night wondering what was causing it and at 3:30am he had an epiphany. The new long block was built for a ford truck that is EPA compliant. It has EGR ports in the back of the heads. The old engine did not have those. He found them and plugged them. The video below is the holy grail of inspirations:

https://youtu.be/hSxpaxbGG_E

Now it just needs to go back in. And I will have probably 2 weeks of boating left on the calendar. Ha! I'll post final report mid-September.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

Well that’s great! Great mechanic too that he kept at it till he found the solution. Enjoy the rest of the season!
These things happen with old stuff where you have to improvise because you can’t just go out & buy new parts. I have a lot of good used parts for my old 1988 Cobra system, the boat still runs great despite being 35 years old!

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

It went from bad to worse. Read to the end.

You saw the engine block on the deck sounding fine -- but when it was dropped into the boat it had a terrible knock. In the video we were at about 2k RPM. The engine sounded fine at idle, but when I added load the knock has loud.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LlirA0SUerQ

-- From what I was later, told the mechanic thought it was a sloppy rocker arm on the #8 exhaust valve. Said there was .012" of clearance.
-- The arm and pushrod were not bent. They look good.
-- He ordered a longer push rod for the rocker arm in hopes to shut it up.
-- He installed it and dropped it in the water and pushed 2000 rpm but still hears noise -- just not as loud.

My thought is that the knock will only get worse and lead to a catastrophic engine failure. He thinks it is poor workmanship on the rebuilt engine.

NOTE: We have NOT exchanged any money. My guy is doing this for a flat fee once it is fixed -- but it's been 16 months of trying and it's led to this. He's out a couple of thousand on parts so far. He was just about to walk away - he even apologized for quitting...then he talked to another mechanic friend of his.

Consequently, we have the opportunity to grab a FORD ENGINE 5.0L V8 from this mechanic in Oregon. He is a friend who would give the engine up for free - it has been sitting on the floor of his shop for almost 2-years. Says "it is in great shape." Since we know him and he wants to get rid of the engine he will offer it for free -- we just have to come get it. If we get it running he said "Just take me out to a nice dinner."

It's a Mustang engine (Lou, you noticed it was a Ford right away), the same block that is in my boat. For better or worse, this might be the hail mary to get this Sundowner 205 running again.

Is this a miracle? The price is right and my guy is willing to go the distance to drop it in and hook up the marine components.

Any thoughts?

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

If the mechanic is willing to do it; I think it’s worth the shot. Any other Ford 5.0 you’re going to find is going to be either an older original engine or a reman. It’s always a gamble because some problems don’t reveal themselves till you put a load on them. When I replaced the cyl heads on my 4.3 seven years ago after blown head gaskets & water in the oil I took that risk of the bearings being bad because of the water in the oil. It was like that a few days till I got it all out. I didn’t know if they were ok till I got it up on plane and watched the oil pressure gauge & listened for bad noises. As it turned out they were fine got lucky that time.
If you can I’d keep the other engine & pay the mechanic to go thru it, repair & keep as a spare!
Remember a new boat like yours is now about $75k. I see junk up on the market for 20k. If your boat is structurally solid with no wood rot and your drive & transom mount are good then it’s def worth it.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Lou, part of the reason he wants to do this is "mechanic's pride." It frustrates him that he's had the boat for 16-month+ and hasn't been able to solve the problem - in fact, he felt bad he offered the long block solution. He added he would take the old engine apart in his spare time to do a post-mortem on exactly what happened.

The transom mount is what started this whole adventure. We did that, and made it stronger than new. Something went bad (rust was a big part of it) in the year it was not in use. As for the boat structure, it has been stored indoors for winters so the fiberglass is in exceptional shape, and so is the upholstery. When it is in the water we always get compliments. That's part of the reason he said he'd hate to see me scrap it.

We have agreed to go forward. He is very optimistic.

<fingers crossed>

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

Good luck hope you have a good outcome!
Your mechanic sounds like a good one!

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Lou, et al.

The rebuild took many more months. The boat has been on an island in Washington state where the mechanic lives. When completed the engine knock was still there. The mechanic swore it was lifters. So he ordered new ones and, after taken off the head for a third time, put in the new lifters. Now the sound is.....still there.

The mechanic asked me to take the boat and run it for a few hours and that the lifters would fill with oil and quiet down. I had it out for two hours at about 3k rpm top speed and while they were not deafening, it was clearly an issue from about 1500-2200 rpm. Power out of the hole was fine. The noise never subsided, and I made the attached video after I got back to dock. You can hear the 'tick' at idle, and what is a knock starting around 1500rpm.
I called my home shop in Oregon and they told me "Don't run the engine unless you absolutely HAVE to. Otherwise shut it down. I will now town the boat back to Oregon to have them look at it.

Here is the latest video for your consumption. What do you make of it? Lifters, really? Or rod?

https://youtube.com/shorts/U6VHdfMcVVg

Thanks in advance everyone!

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)