www.iFourWinns.com

Just looking for some advice here...

Four Winns Horizon 190

Took it in to be winterized/shrinkwrapped. I had some problems over the summer and honestly wasn’t sure if the engine was shot or not, so I was on the fence about winterizing/shrinkwrapping. I figured If the engine was shot, I wasn’t keeping the boat so why waste the money. I specifically told the guy when I dropped it off that I wanted to make sure it ran first, showed him what was going on and he confirmed it was normal, but said that I may have waited to long to winterize so the block may be cracked. I told him to get back with me bc if repairs were required I might not have the winterizing/shrinkwrapping done if that was the case.

He calls me a week later, confirming everything was good BUT the water pump needed to be replaced and he had already done it. I never authorized the repair because I didn’t even know about it but he’s tacked on this large fee for that work. When I questioned him, he said it was required to be replaced in order to winterize the boat.

I contacted some marinas in the area and got some mixed info, but bottom line was told that technically it can be safely winterized without the water pump being replaced, they just wouldn’t be able to truly gauge the engine temp to confirm if the engine is overheating at all. It was also pointed out that they wouldn’t recommend to replace a water pump right when it’s going to be sitting in the freezing cold temps of Michigan, unused for the next 6+ months, they said it was better to have it replaced while it’s being used.

I’m just feeling like I was taken advantage of and totally ripped off. I understand if it was damaged and needed to be replaced, but if it wasn’t in fact required, it should have been my choice to fix it now, in the Spring or not at all.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

Kristin

Not all mechanics rip people off but it really does seem like a high percentage. I got hit by something similar by a reputable mechanic this summer. Really did piss me off like you.
Do you have a Volvo? It is a 10 minute job to replace the impeller on most Volvo's so the cost should be very low and really just for the part if he is doing other work anyways.
A Merc takes a lot longer and he should have confirmed before replacing.
I like the mechanics that confirm before doing work but sometimes that makes things worse to contact the client for every little item especially when they are busy. Something simple usually doesn't need my approval because it just adds a large amount of time to stop especially if they don't talk to me. Then they have to close everything up and start over again after they talk to me.

I guess look at the positive side. If he verified the engine is in good running order you should be happy. A cracked block costs a fortune to fix.

_________________
--2002 3880 Regal Flybridge | Twin Merc 8.1HO **Seven**
--2003 AB 13 VST Console Inflatable | Tohatsu 40hp TLDI **Phish'n ski**
--310 Mercury Inflatable | 1982 9.9 Johnson

I'd say yes, you were ripped off, and if you didn't authorize the work then you shouldn't have to pay for it.

I'd go and get the boat NOW, drain the block, toss a cover over it and worry about it in the spring.

I'd also look into fixing it if you are going to sell - running boats are worth WAY more than ones that aren't running...

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2006 Four Winns Horizon 200
Volvo Penta 5.0 GXi/SX

The reason for the statement he had to fix to winterize is because they don't pull the hoses and drain the block.
They crank the engine, allow to warm up to ensure thermostat is open, and then draw RV antifreeze thru the block until it comes out the exhaust.
If the water pump was not working, they would have to pull all the hoses and drain the block if this place even knows how to do that on your engine.

Again, was it the impeller or the actual circulation pump on the engine. This would also drive cost.

_________________
The Dance II
2007 278 Vista
6.2L Mercruiser

If a marina doesn't know how to drain a marine engine for winter then they have no business calling themselves a marina.

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2006 Four Winns Horizon 200
Volvo Penta 5.0 GXi/SX

Agreed this is simple stuff, that a high school kid properly trained could accomplish. I would make sure it is drained, engine block, manifolds and any other hoses that can hold water. Then cover the boat for the winter to minimize the damage to it. If you do want to sell it the better it looks the faster it will sell even if it needs work. To drain the engine you need:

small size adjustable wrench to loosen drain plugs
a set of small picks to rod out drain holes
(helpful) a heat gun to CAREFULLY warm up hoses so they will come off easily on a cold day

that is really it. simple job but you must hit all the points.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Yes, it is a Volvo. I'm definitely glad the boat's not shot just very shocked by the total price of everything and disappointed with the way he handled everything. Thanks for your input!

Over the summer I noticed a very small amount of smoke coming from the engine. I showed him a video of it and he said it was normal, that it was just "breathing" and not to worry. Of course once he worked on it he confirmed there wasn't a problem (with that concern).

He just said water pump, didn't specify if it was the circulation or impeller.

In regards to the notation about the freezing temps, it wasn't that it would be sitting in the winter months for one more year, it was explained that the concern was more so that had I replaced it in the Spring or Summer, the boat would actively be used and that part would "set" or "meld" better. That probably doesn't make sense lol, they definitely explained it a lot better than I am right now, I'm just forgetting the terminology they actually used. I guess the best way I could describe it is like a helium balloon, when you have it inside it's full and firm but when you take it out in the cold it gets a little deflated until its back in a warmer temperature where it expands again.

I'll be picking up the boat tomorrow, unfortunately the work is already done so there's not much I can do about it now. He did all the work before contacting me and giving me a final price. I also noticed that his pricing for winterizing is ridiculously overpriced or maybe the rates for that service went up all across the board. I've always paid $180 just for the winterizing portion and he's charged me $280, plus $40 for the drain fee which I've never been charged for in the past, didn't even know that was a thing. The whole thing just seems a little off to me. Naturally, I would Google his reviews after to find that all of the reviews are just complaints about how they were ripped off or the work was done wrong.

He didn't specify if it was the impeller or the circulation pump. He just said water pump and that's all the receipt says.

Thanks so much for explaining!! So great to know for in the future because I'd much rather be able to just do it myself. Unfortunately he completed the work prior to contacting me for authorization so I feel like I was put in a really crappy situation.

OK what he was saying about the water pump (replace in spring when you are going to use it) does apply to the rubber impeller (raw water pump) because if you replace those in the fall, the rubber takes a 'set' from being in the same position all winter...the rubber impeller flexes every time it turns and replacing it in the spring may make it last longer...The circulation pump is the cast iron pump bolted to the front of the engine like an automotive GM water pump, these last much longer (ie 5-10 years at least) while the impeller is an every 2-3 year replacement item because the rubber naturally wears.

The smoke you were seeing was it near the hoses that go from the valve covers up to the flame arrestor that is on top of the carb or throttle body unit (looks like a small air cleaner)? If so, that is just blow by from the engine, a small amount is normal once the engine warms up.

You certainly can learn to winterize and spring commision your own boat. If you are going to keep this boat you can save thousands over the years of owing it by learning to do the simple maintenance they need. Inboard/outboards which is what you have, need more maintenance than outboards for sure, but the work is not complex or technically demanding.

The main thing about winterizing is to learn which drain points must be drained and probed to make sure they drain and which hoses can hold water and need to be disconnected. No taking shortcuts like using those suck the AF up the drive kits either, they can cause a cracked block due to the water not exiting the block if the thermostat does not open up all the way.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

What you said about the rubber impeller is exactly what was explained to me by the other marina, where it wasn't worked on.

The flame arrestor is exactly where the smoke was, when I first noticed it, I was thinking I needed to replace those hoses that were near it but at that point I was too nervous to use the boat until I had it looked over. Thats a huge relief to know a small amount of smoke is normal. Thanks for explaining all of that to me. That was the only reason I was thinking I'd need to sell the boat, I honestly thought it would be a really expensive fix and I've already sunk way too much money into this boat. But like you said, if I learn the basic maintenance that should save me a lot in the long run so I'm definitely going to look into doing this myself the end of next season.


Thanks so much for your response!

The winterizing really isn't hard...I complain about being able to reach the screw in plugs but I have limited flexibility due to injuries. Its only 4 plugs and probing holes once removed with piece of wire or heavy weed eater string. Then removing lower hoses at impeller and water pump....all 3 are right next to each other and there's a pass thru door to get to them.

I then fill manifolds and block with antifreeze to prevent corrosion, but that's simple also. There's also fogging to be done before the draining which is easy. When time comes next year just ask this forum for step by step process. You can change impeller, winterize and change oil and fuel filters yourself. Also lower unit oil swap isn't hard.....only thing I don't do myself is pulling lower unit off for inspection as some do.

As Lou said minimal smoke is common and he's the guru. It only is issue if excessive and blowing oil through that vent hose. The test if there's an issue with excessive blow back is to remove oil fill caps on both valve covers while running...if it looks like spindle top spewing oil up or if you feel STRONG pulsating air blowing up then its not good. Minimal wind is OK.

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http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o71 ... wqm355.jpg


08' H210SS
VP 5.7Gi

Also with the blow by, the reason why you see it on marine engines is that automotive engines have a pvc system that pulls the blow by vapors into the intake manifold to get burned, often boats do not use pvc valves, so you will see slight smoke emanating from the hoses as they join up with the flame arrestor. The other thing that correlates with excessive blow by is excessive oil consumption. If the engine has a lot of blow by and is burning oil you put 2+2 together and do a compression test. In that case it may need new piston rings or other work.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II