www.iFourWinns.com

That is definitely not lifters!
First thought is rod knock (of course), but it could also be piston slap.

Either way, that sounds like a bottom-end teardown is needed. Sorry...

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1999 180 Horizon OB Fisherman Pkg (SOLD)
2013 Grand Cherokee 4x4 w/ 5.7 Hemi
San Antonio, TX

I tend to agree with you.

In my discussions with shops around Portland, OR I hear that more and more they are steering away from long-block replacements.

The manufacturers are less willing to guarantee the block if it comes with defects that are typically discovered only after the engine is assembled and fired up. In other words, if they sell a defective block (and more and more are found in the wild) they will not guarantee the hours to tear it down again. So shops are not willing to take the risk when a good percentage of them need overhauls themselves.

That is what happened to me. Ordered the long block and it was installed with all my boat's bells-and-whistles, and the rod is defective. Brand new long block,
lousy workmanship.

Two shops have turned me down for (yet another) long block replacement for that reason. One shop is on board and trusts their manufacturing partner. The other is weighing the risks. Cost quoted were about 8-12K. FYI.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

Do the shops think a rebuild of the current motor is out of the question? 8-12k is a lot to pay when you've already paid for a "new to you" motor (if I understand the situation correctly).
I'm just wondering if spending 5-6k with an engine shop to perform a full rebuild of the current motor might be a better option. I'm guessing at the pricing here, but I figure I can't be that far off.

Either way, sucks that you're still in this position. I wish I had more info to help with.

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1999 180 Horizon OB Fisherman Pkg (SOLD)
2013 Grand Cherokee 4x4 w/ 5.7 Hemi
San Antonio, TX

It is a "new to me" motor. Just a terrible set of circumstances. The mechanic has worked on this boat many times over its lifetime and he offered to do the rebuild as a "flat-fee" favor to a long-time customer (me) and probably wanted the challenge. But we were hit with many setbacks including personal loss which had him reevaluating his life and then an injury that delayed us even further. All totaled we are 21 months since delivery of the boat to his shop.

The long block purchased was for a Ford car engine. There is some thought as to whether it should have been a marine engine block. The mechanic said it didn't matter. Maybe it did more than we know.

The "knocking" was evident after the first sea trial. Here is THAT video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LlirA0SUerQ

Since that video he has torn down the engine two more times to replace the lifters - and we still get that knock. He may very well know it is the rod but doesn't want to dig in that deep again. He is a good man and sincere so I don't blame him.

To elaborate on my conversation with the shops -- there is no sympathy for the work done before they get it. I will try to negotiate with them as I will not need new exhaust manifolds or water pumps or a lot of the other things we might replace during a teardown because they are already new. The top end is great. So maybe I have a little wiggle room if it's just a bottom end rebuild. Marine shops are having a difficult time with the manufacturers quality of these blocks and their unwillingness to cover labor costs if their blocks are indeed defective -- and there's a lot of labor put into the rebuild before they even fire up the engine. Good relationships with block manufacturers appear to be at a minimum.

Here is a question i should entertain that I hope someone can answer: What should I do with the boat if I do not want to invest more $$ to fix it?
The hull and upholstery is top notch (stored indoors all these years). But it is all worthless if there is no motor. Is there a market for good bones of a boat? (and a trailer that is slowly rusting)

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

Sorry to see & hear that, agreed I think that’s not lifters because it’s a very fast repeated sound, since the cam spins at 1/2 the speed of the crank, lifter noises would happen at a slower frequency. An engine with an unknown past could have any # of things happen to it, overheated, run low on oil, left with water or antifreeze in the oil etc. IMHO the only way to do a job like this: is find a machine shop wiling to do the whole thing from start to finish for you or a new engine. Option # 2 would mean converting to a a Chevrolet 350 because that’s one of the few you can buy brand new. Costly though because of the extra parts needed changing to a GM engine vs the Ford.
Selling it? Well do you want to stay in boating? Reason I ask is people are selling junk for $20 grand. You can sell it with full disclosure and see if a guy with Ford engine experience is interested. If it were me I’d be pricing out a conversion to a new GM/Chevy 350. Why? Well a boat your size from Four Winns now is $75 grand. 15 year old boats are expensive too!

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

My island mechanic does not think it is a rod problem because the oil pressure is good and it doesn't quiet down when he removes spark plug wires one at a time ( that is what he told me - I have no idea what that means). I am not convinced it is rod related - as it is not so pronounced on acceleration. There is no power loss, in fact at idle and low speeds the engine sounds like a sewing machine so, in my mind, that doesn't sound like a typical valve problem. There is NO lifter tick at idle that I can hear. And coming out of the hole the boat jumps like it is new. But the knocking sound announces itself starting at 1500rpm to about 2200 rpm after which the engine on board power noise drowns out whatever clacking noise is still there. When throttling down the noise becomes obvious again, but then goes away at idle/troll.

Here's another element in the mix - that this was a automotive long block. The shop in Portland told me that they would have gone for a marine long block. Not sure that has anything to do with it. But it starts right up, better than ever (used to need long crank). No gas smell. Everything points to a well tuned engine. Until you give it gas.

I thought old fuel might be the issue -- but my guys says no. The on board computer compensates for all that.

What a mess.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

THE PLOT THICKENS

Took it to one of the highly reputable shops here in Portland but the engine computer is so old (1996) they do not have the tech gear to read what's going on inside. So I was referred to a specialty shop. As I left to tow the boat over to the new shop they told me that they believe it is in the valve train and begins at half-engine speed. Their "ear" evaluation is either collapsed lifter(s) or a push rod.

Either way I am in for another big project. Could be scrap at this point.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

BREAKING NEWS

One of the most reputable marine shops in Portland took the top-half off the engine and called me. We are dealing with a collapsed exhaust lifter (totally foreign talk to me). He also could plainly see that we are also dealing with mismatched lifters - as the rebuild mechanic had to use some old ones because not all the new ones he ordered would work. (You will recall that mechanic said, "I have 32 lifters and don't have confidence in any 16 of them.") So there's that. He also said that the camshaft is turning just fine and there was no damage. We both agreed since the top is off, to simply put in all new lifters and push rods (that they have confidence in).

We are also dealing with the knowledge that the new long block is likely an automotive unit. The new mechanic said that there is a difference in the lobes for an automotive application vs marine; and that marine lobes are a little different to handle the sustained RPM load that are put upon them. He did not think it was a deal-breaker, just that with the automotive block we may get a little less engine performance at low and high ends (sustained 4400rpm).

Just for your entertainment, the drive shaft is crooked -- 60,000,icrons out of what (the leeway is 3,000). They can straighten and reseal that pretty easily.

And if that's not all -- there's a leak in the Power Steering system. They find the goop in the bilge so they think they can track that down pretty easily.

It may be salvageable. But I'd like to hear your thoughts. We are dealing with an engine (boat) that seems to be jinxed.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

Sounds like they are on the right track, believe it or not, my old Chevrolet 4.3 still has all of the original roller lifters, I inspected them when I replaced the heads 7 years ago and they were like new as was the cam.
The P/S leak, I bet is the steering actuator, behind the engine, now is the time to install a new one, when the cylinder heads & exhaust manifolds are off, with the engine completely in place it is HELL to get at, been there done that. I had to remove the exhaust on both sides to get at it. A tough job. Do it now, even though a new one costs a grand, you will regret it if you don't.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

PROBLEM SOLVED!

After almost three years.

The knocking from the engine (see previous posts/videos) was thought to be lifters (replaced but ineffective) then rods (replaced but ineffective) and finally a machinist got ahold of it and took it all apart. Frankly, I think the marine shops were mystified by the problem and wanted to get to the bottom of it. And they literally did by taking apart the long block. What they found shocked them. Inside were parts that were mismatched for the block, pistons that we of inferior grade, and a mish-mash of rod sizes. The machinist found three scorched cylinders. He could not put the blame for the burns on anything else but bad 'after-market' fuel injectors which might have been spraying too much gas into the chambers. There was evidence of water damage to three of the injectors. So he tore it all apart, sonic tested the block (it was the only thing that was solid) and bore our the cylinders and popped in new pistons, rods, lifters and injectors. They fired it up this week and we took a water test eysterday. Listen to the engine now - like it was NEW.
https://youtube.com/shorts/WXt2Q0ERFWw?feature=share
Off we go to "break in" the engine this spring. If you have any advice, pass it on.
Thanks! Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)

Congrats and now go and enjoy your boat!
Thats why I took a chance in putting reman heads on my old short block, that short block was the original built by GM block, I am very suspicious of reman engines! And, it's still running fine.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

To wrap up this thread...

The engine had to be torn down almost in its entirety. The post-mortem revealed two scorched cylinders. Have a look.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rw0legofd1cft8nz47foh/piston-1.jpg?rlkey=w7lyiy87b1cnlim5rgau52to5&st=micxurew&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/b9cd855scshjoy7cz70p8/piston-2.jpg?rlkey=0gsyuq7lyxag517qndapb22s9&st=6dti1m1f&dl=0
Nearest they could figure the connecting rod on one of the pistons was bad. So the engine was doomed from the day it was delivered.
Sidebar: I could not return the long block because the mechanic who did the job took so long the warranty expired. So a new mechanic took over the job and had difficulty with the engine (well documented here) even hiring an outside expert who thought he had found the problem, but, alas, had not. It was not until the final teardown that it was revealed the root of the problem deep in the long block.

Everyone was losing money on this project, but, I think, everyone wanted to see the boat back on the water. Hence the final rebuild with new connecting rods, pistons, fuel injectors, etc. Now the boat flies on the water as if it were new. Here it is docked at Matia Island, Washington a week ago. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a2mx25emtv1l7dx9kfp26/IMG_7732.jpg?rlkey=3ygqb1yp6iarluytwapiktd0l&st=hj197rwt&dl=0

While I have a new engine I must say that its two+ years in the care of mechanics who took their time also took a toll on the boat. It sat outside almost the entire time. The gelcoat suffered some oxidation which needed six (yes, SIX) passes with oxidation remover and polish just to get it to look half-way decent again. it will probably require six more, but my arms are tired. Also, as the boat was left mostly unattended through rain storms in winter, water leaked in under the cockpit cover and now I am looking at wood rot in the cockpit floor above the fuel tank. I am handy enough to have MacGyver'd a fix for the sagging plywood cover (added some shims and more to keep the floor even) and will set out for a more permanent rebuild of the frame around the gas tank in a week or so. The rest of the floor looks okay. I don't see much of any advice on floor repairs on Sundowners in this forum, so I'll post what I learn.

Despite the neglect from the shops, the vinyl is great, and the fiberglass looks fine (faint cracking of gelcoat at window joints starting to appear - not sure that's an issue yet).

Oh, and the trailor took a beating in the weather outside. That's for another post.

Thanks for your input along the way.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)